She ended the war with her body — Anna Guest-Jelley on yoga and body acceptance

What does it actually take to end the war with your body?

Anna Guest-Jelley — founder of Curvy Yoga — joins yoga therapist Keri Marino for a deeply honest conversation. From childhood Weight Watchers meetings and chronic migraines to building a yoga community that finally made women feel welcome in their own skin.

They talk about body acceptance as an active daily practice, what yoga actually does for a woman's relationship with herself over time and what it looks like to become audaciously whole — not by changing your body but by coming home to it.

Want to find out more about Keri and Anna?

Connect with Keri at https://www.kerimarino.com/ and @the_nourished_woman

Connect with Anna at https://www.curvyyoga.com/ and 

https://whatthebodyknows.substack.com/

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Next steps ⬇️

Grab a free yoga practice to Come Home to Your Body

-> https://kerimarino.eo.page/comehome

Start a consistent daily yoga practice in Daily Devotion - 21 days of 10 minute yoga practices plus email support to keep you on track

-> https://thenourishedwoman.heymarvelous.com/product/92272/lessons

Help spread the word. If this episode resonated, share it with a friend and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

Connect with Keri or learn more about her offerings at www.KeriMarino.com  and on instagram @the_nourished_woman

A gentle note: The Nourished Woman Podcast is educational and not a substitute for medical or mental health care. Please listen to your body and consult your provider when needed.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 1:47

Welcome back to the Nourished Woman Podcast. I'm so excited, you all. I have Anna Guest Jelly with me here today. She is the founder of Curvy Yoga. She is someone that I've just been really inspired to have on because you are kind of punk rock in the yoga world. And I've always been a little bit drawn to that. I found out about you first when I was studying for my 300 hour. I think it was like 2012-ish. And I don't know if that was like a big boom in popularity for your work, but it was yes, it was at that time. Okay, yeah. And so I'm training to be a yoga therapist, and I come across your work, and I was like, girl, yes, no one else is talking about this. And I even I confronted my teachers in my 300 hour in the most loving and gentle way, but I was like, this isn't part of the curriculum. And I know it's out there. Like, I want to learn more about this entire topic because I feel like talking about yoga in a way that is body inclusive and body affirming and makes room for the people offering yoga to be educated in how to help any size person feel safe and at home in the practice is a topic that we just never don't need more of. And I know that you've been somebody that's stood up for this issue for a very long time. And I also know that so many of you, our listeners, really will get something great out of this conversation. So Anna, I'm super excited to have you. Also, thank you for being a person who is like willing to relentlessly bang on the drum of this topic for as long as you have, because I know that it's makes such, it's made such a difference.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Well, thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah. So I always love to start us out on a very human note and talk a little bit about what is nourishing for you right now. And I want you to think on the four pillars. You know, in yoga therapy, we think about body, mind, spirit, or life. And it could be anything at all that's just like, mmm, this feels so good about my life right now.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

The first thing that just came to mind is we live really close to our neighborhood pool and just jumping into the cool water on a hot day that has that like that just like sumptuous quality. My daughter's been going to swim class, and very often I'm like, I wish I could just jump into the pool in the middle of swim class.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Sit here while she's experiencing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

That's right. But we do go often go to outside of swim class. So that for sure. You know, reading books has always been like my go-to practice out, you know, like long before yoga and has continued. And so that to me, I always have an association in the summer and particularly with reading novels. So I just finished reading Anne Patchett's Whistler, which I could not put down and really loved. So those are a couple of things in mind. It's about a relationship between a woman and her stepdad, but she didn't have contact with him for a long time because he separated from her mother and she never really knew like what happened. They were in a car accident when she was a kid, and they just happened to run into each other and then they rekindle this relationship, and it's very life-affirming and sweet. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

I find that read I love to read as well and hear you on the cool pool. Although I will say, in the south where I am, the pools are not necessarily as cooling and refreshing. Okay, let me jump in the bathwater. Right. Temperature pool. But it sounds like both of these things nourish you in different ways. I'm ex I'm imagining like this sensory experience of jumping in the water and feeling the coolness touching your skin. And even just like I was talking to my oldest kid about how when we're in the water, we feel held in a certain way. There's something supportive about being in a pool. And then also being able to tuck yourself into a novel. It sounds like that's been something that's been steadily there for you throughout your life, where you can just go to reading as a way to experience pleasure or joy or to dive into a story and access something meaningful or entertaining. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

And I think there were years of my life where I was hesitant to be in a bathing suit and to be around people in that way. And so now to just feel like, yes, I'm in my bathing suit and I'm here with my daughter, and we're in the pool, it feels nourishing on so many different levels, like for younger versions of me too.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, those past versions of you are feeling get it, they're getting something healing about you feeling free in that environment. I love the term post-traumatic growth. Are you familiar with it? Yeah, I have heard that. So that's part of the I and then this is my this is my view of what you shared. You can throw it in the trash if you're like, that's not how I would describe it. But that sounds to me like post-traumatic growth in a way of like past me didn't feel secure, safe, whatever, being in a bathing suit at a pool. And now you is like, who gives a shit? Like, here I am. This is me. I'm it's not gonna take up my bandwidth. I'm gonna be here and enjoy myself.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

That's right. Yeah, that totally resonates. And another part of that is like being at the pool and seeing all the many different bodies that are at the pool. Like it's not just mine. There are so many different bodies at the pool.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Um, I feel like it's a really cool space to be if you're looking for some body affirming support.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

I completely agree because you see that Photoshop is just tricking all of our brains, right? People's bodies have curves and they have wrinkles and they have stretch marks and they have, you know, yeah, cellulite and all kinds of things. Yeah. Absolutely. I find the same thing to be true. Um, and I think just getting outside of our bubble is so important too. And something like a community pool, it really puts you outside of that like interiority of your own inner judgment or your small circle of your home or capacity to see other people, just being people.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah, and everyone's just having fun and doing their own thing. Like they're not concerned with what I'm doing or looking like at all.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

No. Isn't that refreshing? Like, stories that other people were paying so much attention to us when they're just not.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yoga practitioners hear us say that because those of you that feel insecure in a pose or doing some kind of practice, the I tell people all the time, I'm like, the other people do not care what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

And they're in their own inner experience.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Exactly. As long as you're not being loud and disruptive, you know, fall in and out of tree pose, dance in your dance in your warrior one. Just let your body lead.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Well, I know that you have some past history that I feel like my audience, our listeners, would benefit so much from hearing a little bit about. And I feel like it's a really important thing for the women that are going to hear this conversation to understand because it feels like a foundational informative experience that has molded and shaped your relationship with your body from childhood on and even the work that you do in the world. I don't, I don't know if you would have found your way into this unique expression of your work had you not had some of those childhood experiences that you did. So, can you tell us a little bit more about some of those experiences growing up when you were taught to shrink your body or to monitor your weight or to control your body or even that a larger body-equaled unhappiness later in life?

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, I feel like I got all of those messages pretty directly when I was growing up. So I know I'm not alone in this experience. I was, you know, my mom in particular was kind of um in charge of what I was eating, what I was doing with my body when I was a kid. And I know I was on different forms of calorie restriction before this age, but around the age of 10, she took me for the first time to Weight Watchers. And so I'm like the only kid in this room of middle-aged women making it feel even more like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Like I'm the only kid that's here. And I also know that I am not alone in this experience. When I look back now at pictures of myself as a child, I'm like, where was any of this coming from? Like it was coming from such internalized fat phobia, I think, that was rampant in my family, that's rampant in some, you know, in our society really.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

And so I was on many different diets when I was a kid. I was always being, I mean, encouraged, as putting it very lightly, encouraged to be dieting, to not be eating really, to be exercising only for losing weight. Like there was no orientation toward what does your body feel? What does your body want and need? It was all like, let's get you to this smaller size.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

And that just persisted. You know, I left for college and my mom was like, I love you, but no one's gonna love you if you don't lose weight. And I was just like, Okay. So I carried that with me for so long and felt like nothing's gonna align in my life until I lose weight. So I was just on and off many different diets. Yeah. At one point, I tallied up that I'd been on 65 different diets, which depending on who's listening, that might sound like a lot or it might sound like a little. Um, some of those I was on multiple times. And there was just something about that moment, getting that number, I was just like, oh, like a 66 diet is not what is actually gonna change because the information across diets is all like essentially the same. You know, it's not like, oh, here comes the one, you know, that I think so many of us have looked for in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

And that is when I was like, oh my gosh, I have to just like completely reorient how I'm relating to my body. And I was already practicing yoga at that point. Um, but I had a similar feeling. So I would get instructions like, you know, in a forward bend, put your belly on your thighs. And I'm like, I don't really need to move for that to happen. Like, this is just what my body is like. And so I felt like, oh, I'm finally gonna like get yoga once I lose weight. No one was saying that, you know, as explicitly as was being said in my home, but all of the languaging around it was oriented in that way. Yeah. So that's when I kind of started my own body acceptance journey, and then that led me eventually toward curvy yoga, but we can talk more about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

I love it. You just dropped so many good things that I want to get into, and I know we will as the episode continues because there's just there's so much in great. Um and I want to circle back to those experiences of being taught about your body in this way, because I feel like so many women can relate to this and haven't heard other women say it out loud. And so I'd love to spend a little more time there if that's okay with you.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Okay. So for context, I went on, I started restricting food when I was six years old because I was growing up in a in a traumatic experience at my home and there was a lot of chaos. And so I looked to food as something that I could control. But I also grew so so lots of eating disorder history that I've fully recovered from. Thank goddess. Yes. But it's very formative to grow up having a relationship with food where food is both comfort and food is also something that you have to be careful with if you're trying to control weight or other people are telling you that you need to control weight. Even just, I think having other elder women in our lives, our moms, our grandmothers, our aunts, our great aunts, like I my I'm sorry, this is just so southern and funny. But my great aunt, she I remember being at a family gathering and she was only eating fried chicken, and we didn't have fried chicken at this family gathering. She brought in fried chicken from a gas station. I was like, What are you eating fried chicken for? And she's like, I'm on the fried chicken diet. I'm trying to lose weight, honey.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

And it's just No, that's one I didn't try and I regret it.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

I went to school for clinical nutrition. Like, that is what my bachelor's degree is in because I was like, How do people have a healthy relationship with food? How does one achieve that? Like, I did not know. Um, but I just like growing up in that culture of being in the dressing room for me with other women and seeing them make commentary about their bodies or feeling like life was chaos and I turned to food for comfort. I just kind of want to sink our minds into this a little bit. What do you think, what do you think experiences like this imprint on us? Or how they they might imprint on our nervous system or on our psyche or on our relationship to food and our bodies. What do you think's happening if we look underneath the hood here?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

The image that I was just getting is a tangle. You know, there are just so many messages coming from so many directions. I relate to so many. I was just flashing on times in the dressing room with my own mother. And my grandmother, so my mom's mom, um, had Alzheimer's. And one of the things that she was able to remember was her weight at different points in her life. Like she might not remember who I was, but suddenly she would come up and be like, oh, when I was this age, I was this weight. And so when you're bringing in the family lineage through what you're just sharing, I was like, right, it's coming from so many places. And at least in my family, I think this is true in many families, no one's saying, like, oh, this is something we're all struggling with. It was more like, am I as an individual quote strong enough to like overcome this, to stay thin? I'm using the biggest air quotes imaginable if you're not watching this, um, than being like, whoa, there's a whole system here that's putting this on to all of us. So I always felt like, oh, I'm the individual failure in my family. When of course, like everyone was being affected and everyone was restricting and doing all these different things. It's just some of that was rewarded because it's presented as thinness, and some of that wasn't. In my case, I also had binge eating and of course, like came from all of that restricting and having food being taken away, and then feeling like I had to sneak it and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah. It can be, I think the word tangled feels so relevant because there's so many different layers to it. And I feel like at the very core of all of us, just in our raw human tenderness, is we're seeking love, safety, and belonging, right? And that's about acceptance. And so if you're learning my love that I can receive, like how much love I can get, how much safety I can have, how much belonging I can feel is dependent upon my physical body being a certain way. I mean, that statement from your mom at college was uh was a whopper of a statement for a lack of a better word. Like, I love you, but no one else will love you if you don't lose weight. I mean, that literally says, like, you won't be loved, you won't be safe, and you won't belong. And so I think, and I think something that's here that's also true is that for many girls that have turned into women, we were really smart. We were really smart to figure out these adaptive patterns of like, okay, if I hide that I'm eating this, then they won't know, and then I won't be ashamed, or I won't be judged, or I won't have somebody comment. Or if I restrict food, like I used to literally make myself run around my house because I was trying to burn calories as a very little girl. And like if I do these things, then I'll feel loved, safe, belong, belonging. And so these past versions of us, I think, are actually like really cool, really cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Oh my gosh, yes, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Right? Because we were just trying to get those core needs met in the environment that we were in, with the influences that we had and the like culture that we were being brought up in.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, and then we grew up fortunately and were able to, you know, I still considered myself to be on this path. I feel like it's a lifelong path of orienting toward my own body rather than an external measurement, whatever that might be. There's so many. It's not just weight, right? That we're being asked to measure ourselves against, whether that's success, whether that's I don't know, protein now. Like it's always changing. And I feel like when you are orienting to that, then the metric is always shifting.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Versus when you're turning toward your own body, then you get to be in that relationship. And of course your body's also always changing, but it's a different kind of experience.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah. I think there's also just like the the culture, cultural influences, they vary, right? Like right now, I knew like um, I hate this word, but I'll use it because it's like the popular term, like hair heroine thin, I think is the term. Like suddenly we're seeing a lot of movie stars and celebrities become like rail thin. And that's, you know, I think about like our teenage girls and our young women looking at images like that and seeing that as something that they're supposed to aspire to. I am air quoting this. Um like our culture continues. There's still the beauty industry, there's still the diet culture, like there's still all these things that continue to perpetuate. And so as our bodies change, like I'm 40. I was in the car with my three kids today doing a grocery pickup, and I looked in the mirror of my car, and I just I could see like the forehead wrinkles and the eye crinkles. And I was just like, ah, I took a breath. I was like, my body looks different now. And I'm really just needing to sit with that for a moment and acknowledge that it's changing right in front of me. And then my kids were like, You're gonna die. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, one day, like not today. Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

You're like, that's true, but that's not what we're talking about right now.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Right now, I'm talking about just like being in this body that I have right now and not denying, like, I'm not pretending that it's not changing. And I'm also not saying that I always feel at peace with it because I think those cultural things are always like slamming up against us.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And I I use that word slam. I know it's a strong word, but sometimes I feel like it is. Like you can't get away from the media messages, they're freaking everywhere now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

I'm 45. I relate to what you're just sharing. I feel like one of the things I am noticing the older that I get is how this experience of whether we want to call that dieting or relating to bodies, kind of does like circle around. Because I feel like heroin chic was first in the 80s. And now, like, here it is again. And now being on this side of my life, you know, at that time, I'm like, oh, this is the this is like a real thing. You know, it feels more true the first time you're seeing it. And then the second time around, at least for me, and of course, this is not just the second time around, it's always coming around in different ways. Um, but I'm like, oh, this is like a process that our culture is in, and that you can just sort of be like, oh, I'm not gonna get onto this roller coaster again. I've done that before. And that makes it sound simple. I don't think it is. I really appreciate what you just shared about feeling like those messages are coming back. And I think slam is an appropriate word that you use there. Um, because sometimes people will be like, oh, you just love your body all the time. And I'm like, no, that's why I'm talking about it. Like it's an ongoing practice. I don't think it's a thing that we arrive at. I think it's something that we're in relationship because what we're really talking about is our own bodies.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah. Absolutely. And just like our own emotions and our psyche. Like, we're not, you don't just like go to therapy and you're like magically done.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Right. I wish.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

It's a cycle, it's layers. This is not a linear process. This is like these rhythmic patterns of return. And then, you know, a certain thing will activate you or trigger you. And you're like, oh, there's a new layer of something there for me to just pause and be with or do some work around. Yeah. Reflecting it back to us. So, what do you think body acceptance means? What does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

To me, there's no body acceptance without practice. And I think that was is what has been so supportive for me on my own journey that I already had yoga as a foundation really before I came into body acceptance. So I already had a way of thinking that was practice oriented. And so I think that just sort of dovetailed in once I brought in body acceptance. So it's for me, it is very much about building a relationship with feeling. So when I first started practicing yoga, you know, teachers would say the things that they say, like, feel your pinky toe and warrior two. And I literally thought that was just a metaphor. Like I was like, oh, this is just like yoga teacher talk. No one actually can feel this kind of thing. And then over time, I noticed, like, oh, I'm feeling that. Like I didn't know that was available to feel. And so those layers just started to reveal themselves to me. And of course, in retrospect, it sounds like this tidy story, like, oh, I just felt it. And then I grew. But in the moment, I'm just showing up really day by day. I'm doing yoga. I am going to therapy. I'm learning about body acceptance and the fat acceptance movement. And just all of that is in the mix, as I think it is in anyone's life, right? Like we're brought, like once you start onto a path, then things start to come in from different resources that you're finding. And this leads you to that. And this person leads you to that person. And so it's kind of an organic unfolding, I think, for each person. Yeah. And I feel like the foundation is I don't know that we were even using the language of embodiment at the time, but I feel like we're using that more now of really what am I feeling in a very concrete way? And how does that help me be in relationship with the body I actually have and not the body that I wish was here?

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah, absolutely. So, in on many levels, I feel like what you're saying is that body acceptance is about having a relationship with your body and a practice of relating to your body in a conscious way. Like I can actually not just think about the fact that I have a big toe, but I can feel the sensation of my big toe. Or I can feel like a yoga practice is such a unique environment and place for us to explore and play with tuning into these subtle aspects of our being that are actually like really powerful things to notice. And so it sounds like for you, that act, it's like this active thing. It's not a decision. I accept my body, it's an ongoing relationship.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Mm-hmm. And you know, we were talking about change earlier, and I'm just thinking about seasonality, which is another thing that's really important to me, both of course, in the broader environment, but the many seasons that we're in at any moment as a person, and particularly in a body. And so that is another way for me that I'm always in relationship with myself, where I'm like, oh, what am I needing in this season, knowing that it's not going to be forever, both in ways that I, you know, want and don't want, if we want to put it into those particular terms. And I was also thinking about, you know, we're talking a lot about, because this is a big part of my story, um, body shape and size, weight, dieting. But another big part of my story is pain. So I've had chronic migraines for 30 years. And that is something I've had to weave into my body acceptance practice because I don't want that pain, and it's also part of my life. And so, how do I work with, you know, experimenting with things? Are there things that can lessen the severity or the frequency of the migraines while also not pushing it away so much that I'm like dissociated from the pain and then I can't be in relationship with it? So I think there are so many layers in which we're working with our bodies at any given moment.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah. And it's absolutely not just about the way we look or the size we are or the weight we have gained or lost. It's this larger scope of our bodies going through different things with health or sexual things or any number of things like energy levels rising or falling, or being on your period, or being in different, you know, ovulation or perimenopause, like all the different things that can happen, pain, injury recovery, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

And even I feel like part of our relationship, like to add more, if we kind of like zoom out even further, our relationship with our body in relationship to the people we love's bodies. Because like there's all of that too. My husband had a stroke a couple of years ago, and that has really informed my own relationship with my body.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

In in beautiful ways and also in like anxious ways, because you're just like, well, oh my gosh, you know, insane things can happen in the human body.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

What helps you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

I think that not pushing away the discomfort that I feel is really important. And so taking those pauses just to notice, like that my own mortality can make me feel anxious as I'll get out, or the fact that I'm not in control. So I've had two really formative things happen that just kind of jarred my experience of reality. And one was a very traumatic miscarriage that I had at um 15 weeks of pregnancy. And then another one was my husband who had no pre-existing conditions, he had nothing health going on that caused that stroke. He got the flu that changed the biochemistry of his body. He coughed really hard, he tore his carotid artery and had a stroke. And so that happens to like one in a hundred thousand people. It's extremely rare. Um and so, because of the nature of like these two things being so outside of the realm of what I could control or predict or prevent, it it definitely changed my experience of life in so many beautiful ways, too, though. Like I losing that baby, his name was Maverick. Um it post-traumatic growth is real, right? I know I said it earlier. I've never appreciated my body and my kids and my life and my husband and you know, flowers. He planted a garden in his honor. It's right. Actually, all of my students walk by as they come into the studio. Um beautiful. And also it rattles you because you're like, gosh, I could lose everything I value most in an instant, or something could happen to me. Um it's that practice of sitting with it, I think, and acknowledging the human experience. And I feel like yoga is actually damn good at helping us be with our impermanence.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

And make peace with that process. So I feel like head on, head on, just facing it, making room, also appreciating, you know, Santosha, like Ishvara Pranidana, like these aspects of yoga philosophy that just allow me to enjoy the fuck out of my life and have bone deep gratitude.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I have also had fertility challenges and it took a long time for me to get pregnant with my daughter. And once we did, I was like, oh, it's all figured out, like, let's have another. And this was uh, we started to try to have another in March of 2020. So you can imagine what kind of journey that was. Um, and it it ultimately didn't work out. We had like a two-year process, a few losses, and came to a point where it was just pretty clear it wasn't gonna happen. And that was so hard. But I'm I'm just really resonating with what you shared about facing it head on because we could have continued down the path and like tried many more things. And it would, it just felt clear in my body, like I think we're just done. And sometimes we we can call that. You know, we had been in that process off and on for probably like 10 years at that point, and it just felt like, oh, I think this season to speak of that of our lives is over. I want to be present with our daughter and just close this chapter.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

It takes an enormous amount of energy that the the fertility, infertility, you know, that whole journey, it takes an extraordinary amount of energy to navigate. And so I hear the like the outpouring that was that time. And then what do you think helped you make peace with where you were? It sounds like on some levels it was intuitive, like this is where we are. I feel that my body is saying that season is done.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

I think at a different point in my life, I would not have been able to say that it was done. I think it was being on that path for so long. And exactly what you're saying, I I feel like my whole, like if I was gonna rename my business um or you know, be a different title, it would really be about what the body knows. That's what is like so fundamental to me. And I feel like that knowing was there. I just felt like after my last loss, which was hard, um, I just felt like I think we're done. You know, we'd been trying IVF and things weren't working. And I think I had a sense of peace because I felt that completion in my body, which now that we're talking about that, I'm like, oh, I don't think I could have felt that completion actually in my body in such an obvious way at a different point in my life. And by then I was able to feel that and then be like, okay, if this is what I'm feeling, then I can trust it, which doesn't mean I didn't grieve it. Of course I did. I just the other day was thinking, gosh, because my daughter loves little kids so much. I'm like, she would have been such an amazing big sister. I wish that that could have worked out. But I feel like I can hold that in that space of like wistfulness, um, and not feel like, oh, we should go try again or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Or that it was a shortcoming of yours or your partner's, either. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Because I I meet women who feel very betrayed by fertility issues or the the mismatch of what they thought their life would be with children or numbers of children. And I just want to name, I want to name that while we're on that conversation because I can feel like I think there are so many different messages, like we were saying, slamming up against us, telling us like your body is not enough, you need to mold it, you need to use this product, you need to eat this food, you need to not eat this food. Oh, the strawberries are toxic, they'll give you cancer, or like it's just such a mind fuck information. And then it's like at a core level, somebody just wants to be a mom, right? Or a mom of more than one kid. And then it's and and we're also sold this belief that like our body will just automatically give us kids, and that's not the case for everybody, it's just not everybody's journey to end up having a biological child.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I mean, I thought it was my fault the whole time. And then, you know, as we continue down, the picture became more complex. But I think being able to let go, like, there's just one more thing I could do. If I only eat the core of the pineapple, you know, like whatever the thing is, then like it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Um magical thinking.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yes, yeah. And I feel like that's so encouraged in a lot of ways in this space, especially in the spiritual space. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

I mean, I'm all about spirituality. Do not get me wrong, but I'm not about the toxic magical thinking spirituality out there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah. Because it ultimately for me, in a lot of ways, became about control. Like, let me just try to control every aspect of my life. And you know, we were talking about impermanence earlier, and it's like, oh, actually, I'm not in control of everything that's happening here. I'm actually in control of very little that's happening here.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

And so how is this process unfolding?

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Well, and so much of that is an external orientation, like we're looking outward for action steps or answers or people to help us and give us the insight when some of what we're needing is that internal resourcing, that connection to the wisdom of our own body, so we can figure out what the body knows, or we can get quiet enough to actually hear our own inner knowing and intuition and then say, Oh, oh my goodness. But I feel like when you grow up in diet culture, and that's very prevalent, or Weight Watchers, I kind of think of Weight Watchers, and like please correct me if I'm wrong, I almost think of Weight Watchers as like a cult in a way. It's not exactly a cult, but gosh, like it has the vibes for sure. And I've worked with so many, so huge the majority of the work that I do is one-to-one work with women. And then I do lots of other things too. But the women who have been really deeply entrenched with Weight Watchers, it is a complete, like we have to unlearn a whole lot of very specific things because your authority over your body's own knowing is completely outside of your skill set. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Oh, yes. I was just thinking about even when I was a kid, I had this little leather booklet that had the list of the points for every food. And it was like, you didn't think about what do I want to eat, what would feel supportive for me. You're just looking through, going through, like, how many points do I have left for today?

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

The book is in charge, not what your body's feeling.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

There's no intuition in there.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

No, I mean, it's more like please get rid of any intuition that might exist. Well, because I think the fundamental message is like if your body could be trusted, then you wouldn't be fat. Like that is the fundamental message.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

And so that is where trust in your body gets so confusing for so many of us. Because if you're like, oh, well, if my body was trustworthy, then it would be different. Well, then how do you trust your body on anything else in your life? It's not reliable. And that's what has to change.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Yeah. I think that that statement is like, I just want to let that linger in the ears of you and me and the listeners, because I feel like that that describes something fundamental that I feel like if if women could could um address one thing in your relationship with your body, it would be trust. And and part of that's like untangling and unlearning all of the things that taught us not to trust. Right. And then part of that is also like actually building the skills to trust. What does trust look like? What does trust feel like? What's the mindset of trust?

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Um, how do I relate to that? Because and I feel like, you know, I work in the mental health trauma recovery space. And so a huge part of what we're doing is healing the disconnection point with the body and with our intuition and with our spirit and with aspects of our mind that have, I tell my clients, like these parts are driving the car when we want soul in the driver's seat. Nice. Yeah. We need to love on those parts. We need to help those parts and then get soul back in to where it's actually steering things. But I think that naming that we were taught to not trust is important because it makes it not, again, it's not our fault.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

That's right. Mm-hmm. Well, and I really appreciate what you said about how we really need both. We need the untangling and we need the resourcing. Because I think one without the other leaves you in a kind of like liminal space where it feels like, well, where am I right now? And of course, that's part of the process. It's not like they can both develop exactly at the same time, exactly how you might want.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

But knowing that you need both, I think is so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Absolutely. So I know that you got into yoga not because of weight loss. You got into yoga because you were having chronic migraines. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

And I feel like our stories are kind of similar. I too had chronic migraines and I had pain. And I also had mental health going on, anxiety and eating disorders. Um so I'm curious about your experience of yoga because I feel like you didn't start with physical practice. I didn't start with physical practice. I started with chanting and meditation, which is hilarious. That I was like, chanting, let's go. I love that. Some people are like very avoidant of it. Um, but I did grow up Southern Baptist where we sung a lot. So I think so did I. No way.

unknown 45:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

We'll do a separate podcast about that later.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yes, that's a whole other thing we can get into. Um, but I'm curious about your experience of yoga and how you related to it. I feel like because many of my listeners are, some of you listeners are so in love with yoga, like you are hook, line, and sinker, you know that it's good for you. It's going to be something you do your whole life. But there's other women listening to this podcast who feel like they've heard me talk about how great it is enough that they're curious, but they're not quite there yet. And so what was it like for you to start practicing yoga coming from this background of body disconnection and dieting and weight loss and weight watchers and all of that?

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Well, like you said, I didn't start with physical practice. So I was really doing research once I went to college on what are other things that could possibly help me with these migraines? Because I had done like, you know, every doctor, every test, every medication. Nothing had like really helped. And I found out about biofeedback, and that led me to meditation. And so I really started a meditation practice first that was really helpful. And then that led me to yoga. So this was in the late 90s, and I feel kind of fortunate that this is what happened. I was going to a Southern Baptist College in East Tennessee, and there were no yoga classes around. I don't even think there were classes in Knoxville, which would have been the Closest like big city to where I was. So I started with a VHS tape in my college dorm room. And I think for me, that was just a great place to be because I wasn't like worried about what anyone around me was thinking because no one was around me. Um I would like wait until my roommate was in class or whatever to do it so that I would have the space to myself. Um and I didn't, you know, it was like a Rodney Yee tape. I think so many people have come to yoga through Rodney Yee's VHS tapes. Yeah.

unknown 47:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Um, so I did not like relate to Rodney's body or like any of the people that were in like shirtless and in shorts and all these babies on the beach, you know, like yeah, um, but there was something about it, you know, because I had only, I talked about this earlier, ever moved my body to punish my body, being able to choose to do movement and to do it in this way that didn't feel like it was about achievement, even though I would not have been able to put it into those words at that time at all. Yeah, it was just a feeling. And then shavasana. I think that gets a lot of us. Like, I was like, rest is part of this. Like it just felt so shocking. I feel like I had only ever received messages like that. I shouldn't be resting, you know, that I should be like working out all the time. Yeah. So that just started to kind of work on me. I continued to do those tapes and other tapes. And eventually there was a class in my town at the community center, and it was a taught by a woman who I mean, you know, when you're in your your 20s, like you don't know how old anyone was, but I'm gonna say she was probably in her 70s. Um, she actually had blue hair, and everyone else in the class was probably at least in their 60s. So I was the youngest person there by far. Yeah. And it felt like another affirming space where everyone was, of course, just like kind of doing their own thing. It was very chill. It wasn't like a physical workout class at all. It was a very slow and so I feel fortunate that that was my beginning into yoga. And I know many people find their way into the practice through pain. You know, there are a lot of different reasons that people say, like, oh, why don't you try yoga? So I think it is a doorway that many of us have been through.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Absolutely. I mean, I I discovered yoga in a Barnes and Noble. Like I was just like, I need answers. So I will look all over the self-help. I will look at the CDs and and you just but I feel like part of what so for me, exercise prior to yoga, and I don't view yoga as exercise. You know, we move our bodies and you know become stronger and more flexible and achieve all kinds of wonderful health benefits, but yoga is not exercise. But also, I had never done a movement practice in my body that was not about achieving, like I used to do long distance running and it was all about pushing for a certain time, or directly about like calorie burn and molding my body into a shape that was acceptable in my mind. Like I remember being on a treadmill and being like, okay, 250 calories, that's 10 potato chips or whatever. Um and so yoga for so many of us, I feel like we don't know what we're getting into. Oh my god. And so there's this inherent curiosity because it's a little mystical, it's a little woo-woo, it's definitely weird. Or, you know, it's when I started practicing, I didn't know people who were doing yoga. Um, me either. And now it's like everywhere all the time. It's so different. And also, because of that, like you don't know what it is, it is very so uniquely different. There is a sense of curiosity. I came to yoga because I was suffering mightily, and I just needed any and all answers that would help. It sounds like you similarly were found your doorway in. And then what do you think you actually found in yoga that kept you coming back?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

I think what I actually found was my own body for the first time. It was my first time to start to, you know, as I mentioned, be able to feel parts of it, but also start to feel more of a sense of like an integrated whole. I think that yoga can drop us into that through breath, through movement, through whatever the teacher might be sharing. And that that was enough to keep me engaged with it. I definitely did not become like an overnight, oh no, I'm practicing yoga every day kind of person. I dipped in and out of it plenty, but it was always something that I was kind of like interested in and curious about. Um, and I practiced for about 10 years before I decided to do a teacher training.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like kind of in and out, but you kept almost, I don't know if it there was something like magnetic in a way, like circling back, like, okay, you can move into this. And it sounds like yoga is something that gave you a very different kind of relationship with yourself. And then it also gave you some pain relief benefits. I'm assuming I probably shouldn't have kept at it. And I feel like one of the things that I tell in my own story and remind my clients and even other people that refer to me is that yoga, for so many of us, is the first place where we activate our own healing resources in our body and our own body acceptance in terms of relationship with our body. Because in my experience, searching for pain relief, I was going to the chiropractor, I was doing all the different like tables and you know, machine, like all the different things. It was always about like, I need to find someone to help me get relief and then I'll feel better and then I'll be okay. But the yoga practice became in a completely different dynamic where I could go into a room and no one would touch me. I mean, I might get like a little bit of hands-on assists that were very light and soft, but otherwise, I was just moving my own body. I was just breathing, I was just noticing. I remember the level of hypervigilance that I had in my body early in my yoga. Like I would be like whipping my head around and very jerky. Um and just like that for me, I think, and a lot of like I'm feeling the emotions come up right now. Like it was just it forever is a turning point.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Mm-hmm. Me too. And I was just thinking, I don't know if I put it in these terms before, but really yoga was my first healing practice. The first thing that kind of helped me realize, like, oh, more is available to me than I realized. And I relate so much to what you're saying about the looking outside and trying to get all of the help. And, you know, I think help is good. And when you I have benefited greatly from help, um, and when you are, as you're saying, in that space of like, oh wow, let me just be with what's here and notice my own. I feel like I'm not really wanting to find the word resilience, but kind of, that's the word I'm looking for. Yeah. Um it does make a huge shift.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

It's powerful. And I I hear that particular story over and over again, and I never get tired of it.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

So would you say that you felt in that class with the seniors? I'm imagining that you felt somewhat accepted in your physical form. Yeah. Because, you know, I feel like one of the things I hear here from my menopausal women is like, I don't give a shit what people think about my body. Um but so you're in that's a totally different vibe than being in a class with 20-year-olds or how whatever age you were in a room full of 60 and 70-year-olds. But obviously, at some point there was an experience in many yoga environments, I imagined, where you felt like you needed to lose weight in order to be successful at yoga or advance your practice, or to, or to whatever you felt like you needed to do in order to belong. Is that inaccurate, accurate? No, that is accurate.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

And it sort of um was concurrent with yoga becoming so much more prevalent everywhere. Yeah. So I was only in that class with the seniors for maybe a year at the most. I feel like that started during my senior year of college. So then when I went to graduate school in Florida, there were more yoga classes around, which was exciting because I was like, oh my gosh, I've never had this opportunity before. Um, and there were many more classes that were very like fitness oriented, that were using language that just didn't feel relevant to my body about, you know, putting your belly on your thighs. I think I mentioned that. Like, and just that is when it started to be like, oh, what I'm seeing around me and the bodies I was seeing around me are everyone appears to me to be like very thin, very fit, however, we kind of classify that. And no one else here looks like me. Like you just start to pick up what's happening in the space when you're the only one. Yeah. And then I felt like, oh, I'm gonna really get it once I change my body. And that wasn't something I questioned for quite a while because, like, why would I? What in my life had led me to question that at that point? You know, I'd been getting that message at home, I'd been getting that message in the broader culture. So to me, that just kind of tracked. Like, I was just like, oh yeah, of course. Like I would be on an on a path of trying to lose weight via yoga or whatever the case might be.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

Yeah. Anna, that sucks.

unknown 58:03

I know.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

And so many people have that experience. I feel angry thinking about that, yeah, truthfully, because I think about how like you were introduced to yoga through Rodney Yi, me too. Um and you're just in your home and there's not like a room full of people to compare. And then you go to this the class at the community center, and it was welcoming, and the that like weight loss conversation didn't need to be there. And then you go into a different yoga, like you're in Florida, it's a totally different vibe. And then suddenly it comes into a space that was your first healing space, and then it introduces layers. And I'm sure on some level, if we speak honestly, that it complicated your relationship with yoga in a multitude of ways.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that kernel we were talking about of there's something here for me, and I can feel that was still there. And it felt like, oh, maybe there is like this pernicious message that I've been hearing is still here. And I hadn't like quite realized that. And I think part of me felt like, oh yeah, how would I have not known this before now? And it's not like I didn't entirely pick that up, you know, because I had like a, I think I had an MTV yoga VHS tape at one point. Like, you know, none of that was it was it wasn't like a perfectly accepting environment at my in the home tapes either. Um, so it wasn't brand new. But yeah, I think you're right that it did feel like, oh, okay, back in this slog a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

So how did you work with that? I'm sure at first it was okay, let me go back into that old mode of being where I try to change my body, I try to lose weight to belong, all of that. And then at some point you you untangled. I don't know if it was when you tallied up the 65 diets and you were like, gosh, I don't think 66 changes it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

I mean, I think that was really like a very key turning point. Um, I had already been seeing a nutrition therapist before that. So I was already working on my own eating disorder and just really to just keep using that word untangling from my past and like my family relationship around food.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

And so I think as those pieces were getting pulled apart, then I was able to look at them in different contexts. And so then I was able to start to look at the yoga space and kind of be like, oh, is the problem here my body, or is the problem that teachers don't know how to teach bodies like mine? And none of those were like, you know, like a lightning strike or anything, but just like little things that were starting to build over time, which is what I think a body acceptance path most often is, is these little pieces that accumulate over time to big shifts. But in the moment it just kind of feels like I don't know, nothing, or it feels like, oh, a little something, and I'm back on the same path.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Those little breakthroughs tend to integrate. It's like, oh, huh. I wonder if if I'm the problem, or if the teachers not knowing how to teach my body is the problem. And as a thought like that will come up and then just like disappear into the atmosphere. That's right. Yeah, sometimes for a long time. Yes, absolutely. I think that's important for us to name a growth and healing journey is really just a life. It's not that's right, it's not just a season, it's just a way of living, just like a yoga practice. So at a certain point, you decide you wanted to become a yoga teacher. Was it then that you decided I want to do this differently? Or what was that moment of activation where you knew you wanted to create something different for people?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

So I uh was taking classes at a studio that I liked that was pretty welcoming. And they were gonna offer a teacher training, their very first one. I don't think I had ever, I definitely had never been around a place that offered a teacher training. This was before they were easy to find.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

And I was teaching. So I was teaching English. I loved teaching, and I was like, I love teaching, I love yoga, maybe I'll put these together. So I applied and I had to go in person to do an interview with the person who was going to be leading the training. And I almost pulled out of the parking lot to leave. I was like, this isn't for me. Like, who am I to think that I would do this? But I the reason I went in, honestly, is that they had a gravel parking lot. And I was like, she definitely heard me pull into this parking lot. It's so loud. And it was like, you know, not at a time that they were having class or anything. It was very obvious that it was me. Um, so every step of the way, I was very much like, I don't know if I'm gonna teach. I'm just doing this to learn more about my practice, which I think many people do and is a valid way to approach teacher training. Um, and even after I finished, so I just started it in 2008, um, finished in 2009. I was a little like, oh, I think I'll teach some classes. We'll see if anyone's interested. Um, and right around that time, I moved to Nashville. So when I moved and got established, I was never planning to make yoga. Like I thought I would teach like one class while I continued to work. And I started a blog just because I was like, this might be interesting. And maybe some more people are interested in practicing yoga in a bigger body than just me. And then many people were. So it was like every step of the way, sort of like we're talking. I was never like, here's my big plan. It was more like I felt the next thing and I followed that, and I felt the next thing and I followed that. Yeah, and I feel like that's still true today.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Absolutely, and it sounds like you you kind of were just going along with your own intuitive process. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

Yeah, and navigating the fear of like who's gonna find me to be a believable yoga teacher. You know, I wasn't seeing bigger-bodied yoga teachers at that time. There were a few people out there, but they were very few and far between.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yeah, I mean, it was very I started, I did my training in 2009 and you know, practiced a few years before that. And every yoga teacher I saw was a thin white person. And it's it's um and even just like the people I was seeing in the yoga rooms were mostly thin white white people, yeah, um, or or moderately sized white people or whatever it is. And so I think that it is an environment where we as professionals have a lot of work to do to make these spaces much more inclusive and much more accessible and comfortable for all different kinds of people to want to walk in the door and experience it because there are many different barriers, like culturally or size, or color, or gender, that can feel like it's not a place for them. And before we get into that conversation, because I definitely want to go there, I want to talk about the paradigm shift that you made from, and these are my words, so please edit them ruthlessly if you're like those are not the words that I would choose. But it feels like there was a paradigm shift from I'm the problem to I'm not the problem. Does that resonate, not resonate? How does that layer?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Yeah, no, that totally resonates. I mean, I think you just put the context around it from what you were saying, where also everyone I was seeing was thin and white in the classes that I was in. And it was, I think there was something about stepping outside of I'm the problem in relationship to my body's relationship with food, how I was raised with that in my family, that I started to be able to just look at a more systemic level. Um, I think feminism taught me that too. You know, I was doing a lot of feminist organizing at the time, so I was really thinking in that kind of way.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

And once I saw that, it was, you know, we've talked about a few turning points. That was another turning point where I was just like, oh, people are just literally not learning how to teach any other kind of body besides generally a thin, flexible, able-bodied kind of person. And that's when I was like, I think some other options might be available here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

So it sounds like part of it was really understanding this larger systemic, these systemic problems, these systemic influences, or I can't even find the right word, um, culture that was going on. And then part of it was realizing that that in and of itself was a problem that had impacted you, and that maybe your size, your shape, your this or that ability, not ability, whatever it is, was never the issue. It was a systemic issue.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

That's right. Yeah.

unknown 1:08:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:10

And so to me, that meant not only were there more options for my own practice, but there were more options for all of us, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Yeah. I'm imagining that that was pretty liberating for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Yeah. It made me see like, you know, I think there's a way in which it can feel like, especially if you're newer to yoga, like there's some magic that the teacher has. And what they are offering is like, I don't know, coming from some other plane. And when you can be like, this is just a person, and this person has not learned, like they've learned one very, very limited thing, and they could learn other things. I could learn other things. And it just sort of like demystifies everything a little bit and becomes more tangible.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Right. Like, oh, they're human.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

Yeah, right. Like, no one teacher is responsible for this system, right? Like, and it's not coming exclusively from yoga, it's like a bigger thing, and it of course also permeates yoga because it permeates all parts of our lives.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Absolutely. Yeah. I've been on a mission to speak very Audaciously about how yoga was marketed to us versus what yoga actually is. And I and that that like marketing predates most all of the people who are still alive and teaching today, right? Like this was a thing about when yoga came over to the West and it needing to be something that people would want to say yes to, right? Which on some levels, like we're teaching on the backs of those people who did bring it over and make it something that was a part of our culture. But also when it came over, what translated was yoga as fitness in larger scale. And when we look at it through that lens, it is really extractive to the actual truth of what yoga is. And so I feel like part of the systemic issue that we're talking about here also plays into that at large and untangling ourselves from that view of what yoga is, because I feel like a lot of people come to yoga looking for healing, or come to yoga looking for relief, or come to yoga to help them prepare for birth or for fitness or whatever it is. And then you're brought into that culture where we all have a lot of dismantling to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

Yeah. And it's, I just appreciate that you're doing that work. I love the work, the word that you said audaciously. That feels right to just say, you know, it's really what you said earlier, too, which I agree with. Like, I don't think of yoga as exercise either. It is so much broader than that. And when we can bring that in, I think it makes space for like what I'm feeling in my body right now is like an exhale. Like, oh, this is a place I can be in a different relationship to my body. Like, I might not know what that is or what that means, or even if I want it, you know, at the beginning. But I'm curious enough to stay in it and see how it unfolds.

unknown 1:11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

And that's what I love about yoga. I feel like my practice is very much still unfolding, and I hope that it will continue to.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

I think I agree. And one of the things I love about yoga is that the more you learn, the more you're like, I know nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

Oh my gosh, it's so true.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

It's so expansive. I will never know it all. And I feel like that just like the Capricorn in me is like, yes, we can work hard forever and never know it all. So I'm imagining our listeners who have a body different from what they see in a yoga environment. And I I work a lot with my clients on embodiment in general, your relationship to your body, those systemic issues and calling them out, rewriting the story of skill building, of actually inhabiting the body, curiosity, all of those things. And I have heard from so many women that it's kind of like there's this like middle ground where it's like if you're in the middle, people will still comment about your body and make judgments about your body, but they'll make less, right? And if you're in these outlier spaces, whether that's smaller, thinner, or fuller, then there's going to be extra amounts of commentary about your body. And I just kind of want to name that for our listeners. So if you're in that like outlier territory, then what would you say to those women if you could say anything to them in the framework of body image or practicing yoga or just anything that you feel like they might need to hear on the body acceptance category? And there, I want to name their experience of feeling like they have more feedback on their body all the time. From passerbys, or I mean, just people who think it's fine to talk about their bodies.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

Yeah, I would definitely say your experience is true and that you get to trust that experience. I think sometimes people want to talk you out of that experience, like, oh, it wasn't that bad, or they meant this. And I just want to call bullshit on that. You know, it's just like not true. And you know how it feels and how it lands, and how much, you know, I'm just thinking of myself, like how much work it takes as a fat person to work up the courage to go to the doctor, for example, because you know the kind of stigma that you may face, the kind of obstacles you may be trying to navigate with the person in the room.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:04

So yeah, I would just first say, you're right. You get to trust your own experience. And I don't want to say, like, oh, if you go to yoga, it'll be great. Because guess what? Sometimes those experiences still happen in the yoga space.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:21

And so I never want to sugarcoat that or make it feel like, oh, everyone is gonna be like very skillful and accepting because that's not true. I do think the conversation has shifted and it kind of depends on your the yoga space that you're in. But I think finding practices that nourish you to bring in this word that is so beautiful here can be a supportive way to be with your own body that's not about external commentary.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Yeah, absolutely. It it feels like discernment is a really important part of what you've shared there, that ability to discern who you are being with yourself as you practice and who other people are being in relationship to you. Is a doctor, for example, spewing fat phobic commentary on a person? Or is a person expressing judgment? Or do you feel worse after leaving a yoga class rather than better? Or are they talking about dieting? Like I know um one of the studio owners that I worked with for many years in Carey, North Carolina, she described herself as a recovering vegan because she was like very entrenched in Jivanmukti yoga. Like veganism was just like a huge movement in that part of yoga. Like if you were serious in that community and you were not vegan, you were gonna be shame blasted so hard. People were hiding that they were eating meat.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:59

And so I feel like in certain like yogic pockets or communities, you can see a lot more rampant stuff. And having discernment around it feels really important within that context of you can trust your experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

Yeah. And I think we have, you know, I have many things I could say about the downsides of the internet, but I think one of the upsides is that now there is often more information on people's websites or maybe their social media, even where you can start to get a bit of a feel for what people are about before you even go try a class to sort of start to get that vibe. Yeah. Um, and you know, people are regularly asking me, like, how do you go to a new yoga class? How do you know if it's a good fit for you? I think what you just said is a great barometer, which is how do you feel after you leave the class? Like if you're feeling like it's been a shame-drenched experience, then I don't think that's the right space for you. But that doesn't mean yoga isn't for you, which I think sometimes can get conflated very understandably when you especially when you have a negative experience at first. Um, but I treat it kind of like um going to a new doctor, honestly, or anyone, a therapist, someone who cuts your hair, like the first person you see might not be the right fit for you. So it might take a few tries to start to find something where you're like, oh, okay, I think there's something here that feels like I want to explore it more.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

What would a body afford affirming space feel like for them? If if our listener is asking themselves, well, how would I how would I know what a body affirming space even is? Or what what are some green lights and red lights?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

So I think some green lights are, are there different bodies practicing in the space? You know, does everyone look exactly the same? To me, that's a bit of a like, you know, we're we're inching into a red flag territory. You can never tell from just one class necessarily, because who knows who shows up on any given day.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:20

I think also are there options being offered for what's being taught. So if everyone is doing a pose and there's only one way and no no other options are offered, I feel like that's a less body-affirming space. My dream is like you go into a class and everyone is doing things at least a little bit differently. Like one person has a block, one person's doing it at the wall, you know, like there's just, and everyone feels okay with that. You know, so much of that work is happening internally within the teacher, you know, like working with their own internalized fat phobia, working with their just skills as a teacher, noticing their own language, you know, diet culture is such a just like normalized part of our language. And so starting to notice the times where you might reference, like, you know, whatever. Like, oh, I eat too many cookies, I have to burn them off, and then just being like, wait a minute, why why am I saying that? What does that have to do with yoga? And so and then I think there is also that feeling at the end of class. Like, did you feel connected with yourself in some way? Do you feel like you're encouraged to come back and to continue? Were other people welcoming? Those are some of the things that I'm always looking for.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:41

Yeah. What about you? Oh, um, I feel like the agency and choice to honor and listen to your body. I always tell my students, your body is the boss around here.

unknown 1:19:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:59

And but that like, and I like to do playful, silly things because I want people to remember, like, I'm using my nervous, I'm such a nervous system nerd. Like, I'm co-regulating their nervous system by being a goofball saying silly things like that, because then their nervous system's like, oh, I am the boss, you know, or that's right. She said it, you know. Um, but I think like spaces like that where it's maybe not like all serious all the time, and there's a little bit of play woven in, and there's this reminder at a multitude of times during the class that they have permission to honor themselves or adjust their pose or do this differently. And I heard you say this in a podcast that I was doing some research on you to prepare for our conversation, and I completely agree. And it's basically like building different options from the most accessible up to a more advanced option and how to say that. Like, you know, I teach the most like fundamental aspect or foundational pose, and then I offer different ways to play with it from there. And I use the word like play a lot of times. Like it's not like if you want to advance your practice, do this pose. And so I think people looking for environments where they're simply invited to be curious is really important. But I also think using cueing, like looking for teachers, or if you know, I have a lot of yoga therapists and yoga teachers that listen to this podcast. And like when we're speaking, one of the questions that I think we should be asking ourselves a lot when we're teaching is how would I feel if I were this person? And what would I need or want if I was that person? And so, like if you're a large-breasted woman, I my work is all about women. So I speak to the female body a lot. If you're a large-breasted woman, then or if you're pregnant or postpartum or whatever it is, if you have a larger belly or a smaller belly, like we need to adjust in our languaging to the people we're teaching in the room and offer cues that help them feel seen.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:13

Which isn't, I feel like, is advanced. I feel like a lot of yoga teachers that are new might be listening to us talk and they're like, holy goodness, how do I do all those things? And I just want those earlier teachers to hear me say that you'll get better with that over time if you try.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And you know, a big thing that I talk about because I have offered teacher training for a long time. If I have um teachers who are in thinner bodies themselves, sometimes they can be like, How am I gonna talk about a belly? You know? And I'm like, Oh, the way you do it is you do it all the time. And you do it in every class, and you do it like you don't need to personally clock. Does is there someone here who needs some information for their belly? Like you're craning your head, like just offer it, you know, like, oh, if you if you feel like you need a little more space for your belly, like bring your hands to the belly, move it down towards your pelvis, you know. You I offer that as neutrally as I offer information about any other part of the body. For sure. And I'm not like making eye contact with someone who I think might like, you know, quote unquote need it. I think teachers feel that way sometimes, like, yeah. And I know students have felt that way, you know, like they have felt singled out in a particular way. And so when we can just be like, oh, what I'm doing as a teacher is making space for a variety of bodies. Because one of the things that um maybe surprised me more, it doesn't surprise me anymore, is that when I am offering those belly cues in particular, a wide variety of people who you might not initially suspect try that. And then they're like, oh my gosh, that was actually helpful. I'm like, right, because we're just like meeting our actual bodies here. We don't have to decide who it's for. And that's part of just making an inclusive space because then no one's it's not like because I think when we're waiting for that person to come to our class, then if you have like a group of regular students, they haven't heard it before, then you roll it out when someone with a bigger body comes in, then that's like creating a weird vibe for everyone. Everyone's like, why is this happening right now? So if you're just offering it all the time, then it becomes part of the norm of your class. Like, oh, we're just with our bodies, bodies are changing. I'm not deciding who needs this information or who doesn't. You're deciding, you're trying it out yourself. I loved your language of play. I also use the language of experiment a lot. Like, let's just try some things, see what it's like.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

See what it feels like. Absolutely. I feel like what you shared there is so insightful. And I just want to like circle around it for teachers, for yoga therapists, for people looking for yoga teachers or yoga therapists to be looking at people who just normally do these things. Like it's become a part of their psyche to think in through the lens of body acceptance rather than body judgment. And I feel like if you just like I've even, you know, like I've taken yoga classes where they're talking about getting drunk in the class or things like that. And it's like, I'm not gonna go back to that environment. I don't want to hear about somebody's too much tequila when I'm trying to meditate and move.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:35

It's not for me. Choose a different option. Um okay, so there's gosh, I had the thought and then it left my brain. Um, let me see if I can get it back really quick.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:48

Just part of being people, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

Yes. Because it was such a good thought, too. Not to like, I'm not great, I'm just a normal lady. Um, but it was a really insightful thought.

unknown 1:25:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:00

I'll see if it comes back and I'll ask you my last question and it comes back and we'll circle back to it. Sounds great, yeah. My last question that I want to close with, and we've talked about in and out and all around this, but I just want to get right in there with you on the topic. And it's how has yoga been a part of your growth and healing journey? Oh, I just remembered the question. Oh, let's hear it. Okay. Okay. So for my fuller bodied students, clients, people listening to this, what are like the top three to five things that you would like them to know about how to make their yoga practice even yummier in a course?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:42

Mm-hmm. Well, I think I've already been talking about one, which is making space for your belly. And I would just apply that to any part of your body, really. So if you're someone who, for example, if you're in bridge pose, let's say, and your chest is like sliding into your throat and you feel like it's gonna strangle you, as sometimes happens to me, then it's just a reminder, like you're allowed to touch your own body. So you can bring your hands to the skin and just move it a little bit and make some space. You don't have to be suffering, you don't have to be struggling, you can make those shifts. I think the other thing to say is, and this kind of goes for like, how are you looking for a body affirming class? Nothing makes me matter than when I hear a bigger body person went to class, and the like other option they were given was just to hang out in child's pose for like half the class. I'm just like, I need a six-hour soapbox on this. First of all, child's pose is not comfortable for many different bodies. Second of all, that's not like really an option. If you're like, please just sit out while everyone else does the real thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:54

I think giving yourself permission and also looking for spaces that make this available to you first and foremost is like a different way to do a pose if something isn't working for you. It really circles back to what we talked about earlier, which is the the problem is not your body. There are so many different ways to do literally every single thing that's being done in a yoga class. Maybe you're not gonna do it from standing, maybe you're gonna do it from seated, maybe you're gonna use a wall, maybe you're gonna use a prop. And I think the more that we're bringing that in for everyone, the better it is for everyone. You get to experience something different in your body, even if you are like able to do the quote unquote full expression, something else I hate, is the is that particular phrase. Um you can learn a lot by doing the pose in a chair instead, for example. Absolutely. So just knowing that those options are out there, I think it's really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:57

That's wonderful. I love that. And the permission to touch, like you can adjust your arm, you know, like you can totally every part of your body. Lift your buttock flesh, like please just tend to your body.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:12

Even if it drives me bananas when somebody has to pee and they won't get up and go pee, and you can like see them squirming, and you're like, okay, we're going on our belly, and they're like, No, just go just go to the bathroom.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

Yeah. Okay, so to that final question, how has yoga been a part of your growth and healing journey?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

I yoga is the foundation of my healing journey. I don't think that there is anything that I have done since that hasn't been built on that foundation of yoga. Both my ongoing practice and the deepening relationship with my body. Like I very much needed, and I don't think I'm alone in this, a tangible way to bring in like therapy, books, all the other many things I've done, other other modalities, like none of that would have really landed or integrated for me without a place to practice it, which for me is always ongoing yoga. That's why I still keep doing it now for almost 30 years. And I have no plans to stop, even as my own body, of course, is changing and will continue to change. One of the most profound teachings that I ever heard was from a teacher who was with his teacher when she was passing away. And she was in the hospital for a while, and so she was able to have her students come in with her, and she would say, like, I'm in this bed, what I'm practicing is breathing. This is still my yoga practice, and that has just stayed with me this whole time. I probably heard that, I don't know, 25 years ago. I still think about it regularly. Like, it's something that can adapt with you over the course of your life until the end of your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:11

It's so rare. Yeah. Well, it sounds like yoga has been so instrumental to your growth and healing. I literally got chills as I was reading the story. And I'm so glad that you're doing the work that you're doing, that you've continued to do the work that you're doing. Because let's be honest, it's a devotional practice. That's true. Keep doing the work that you're doing in the world. I see you and I celebrate you. And I know that everyone listening, I'm gonna put some links down in the show notes of where you can find Anna, but will you quickly tell us the best place to find you on the internet?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:53

Yeah, so the best place is probably just Kurvy Yoga Studio, which is where all of our practices live, and you can learn about curvy yoga. And I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't talk about it too much. I also lead a practice that is um part yoga and part writing. So we do uh a free write together. We do two, and there's a sub stack for it, and there's also a live class. And so that is really like my heart is very much in that practice right now, and it is called What the Body Knows. So that's really what it's all about. So you can check that out too if it calls you.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:28

Yeah, make sure your your info on both of those are down in the show notes for everybody. Thank you so much, Anna, for participating in this conversation. It's been a delight to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

Thank you. I really appreciate you inviting me. It feels like we're kindred spirits.